Curse

Red Sand · May 04, 2008, 05:57 PM // 17:57

I agree with Lexus' example of stupid tactics on Etnaran, I watch it happen all the time.

It's probably best to feint toward the rez and then cap the warrior behind them, or stay up on the hill and fight them when they come up to the necro shrine. If things go bad, you can can always fall back to the support of the necros.

He is wise who knows when to fight and when not to fight. - Sun Tzu

Edit: Reply Number 100 on this thread!

MasterSasori · May 04, 2008, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

For example, both teams cap their 3 starting shrines. All teams meat each other in the middle (so 3 small 4vs4 skrims) and all 3 skrims are won by 1 side. This will instantly translate into at least 6 shrines for one side. Teams who are dedicated to shrine capping and avoiding battle at all cost are usually hindering the other 8 players. Shrine capping is fine, but people need to know when to do it. It is fine to go into a small skrim when you are 4vs3 on shrines, if you win the skrim you are closer to victory then by keep capping.

The problem with this is that the average team doesn't know when to quit the brawl and if even 1 team caps 1 shrine while the others are brawling, they are automatically at the losing momentum and RARELY do the brawlers disengage from a fight to protect their lead. There is no hindrance if you cap faster than the others. If the classes you bring into AB are only for skirmishes and not suited for capping, don't expect to win.

Capping is always priority in AB.

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

By no means teams shouldn't cap shrines, but your goal is to keep ahead of shrines. Sometimes this means not capping but engaging is a better way to reach this goal. To me, teams that solely cap just try to blame other teams when they lose: 'but we cap!'.

Much more often when a side loses is that one team of 4 is either incompetent or the other team is much more skilled. It's not really they didn't brawl as we see very very few games in which all teams are devoted to capping.

valence · May 04, 2008, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

The problem with this is that the average team doesn't know when to quit the brawl and if even 1 team caps 1 shrine while the others are brawling, they are automatically at the losing momentum and RARELY do the brawlers disengage from a fight to protect their lead. There is no hindrance if you cap faster than the others. If the classes you bring into AB are only for skirmishes and not suited for capping, don't expect to win.

this is only the case if 1 teams mobs, otherwise 1 team would be capping as well and your progress doesnt mean anything. While, if the other 2 teams succeed in keeping their shrines they would only lead more (points from the kill) as well as they have a free run to another shrine.

basically, if you got 4 shrines and hinder any capture the enemy team makes, you win. There is no doubt about that. However teams that are build to be versatile can still cap, but builds that cap solely cannot adapt. Bringing builds that solely cap, is asking for a lose, as you are dependent on 8 others in a much bigger way then bringing more variance.

Teams that solely cap just avoid battle all game, run from 1 shrine to another and beleave that is the only way to victory. When I play with these people I also see opponents doing the exact same, and geuss what, both points go steadily up. AB isn't in a state like HB 2 monks jumping around a map in order to win, yet people want to beleave it. Splitting is one of the hardest things tactic wise to learn in gw, a lot of that goes away with this mentality in ab.

moriz · May 04, 2008, 09:22 PM // 21:22

the "cap-necro-shrine-and-rush-the-rez-shrine" tactic can be good or bad, depending on the situation and what happens afterwards.

for that tactic to be effective, the team that just rushed the rez shrine needs to be aware enough to double back onto the necro shrine after capping the rez shrine. this forces a very favourable matchup, since the attacking group would've already engaged the necros and are suffering from the effects of hexes. even if they have a nuker and can clear the necros quickly, at least you'll know the nuker is recharging and can be ignored as you wipe out the rest of the team. then, proceed onto the warrior shrine uncontested.

so this opening move pretty much ensure that your side (that is the defending side) will control the rez shrine, the necro shrine, and the warrior shrine. it doesn't matter if the necro shrine is empty, because you sent two groups back into their base for 20 seconds, and the remaining group is in no position to threaten the necro shrine.

MasterSasori · May 04, 2008, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

this is only the case if 1 teams mobs, otherwise 1 team would be capping as well and your progress doesnt mean anything. While, if the other 2 teams succeed in keeping their shrines they would only lead more (points from the kill) as well as they have a free run to another shrine.

So you're saying to try to get more than one team of the other side to mob?

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

basically, if you got 4 shrines and hinder any capture the enemy team makes, you win. There is no doubt about that. However teams that are build to be versatile can still cap, but builds that cap solely cannot adapt. Bringing builds that solely cap, is asking for a lose, as you are dependent on 8 others in a much bigger way then bringing more variance.

Hindering a team from while protecting your own is pretty damned difficult seeing how its difficult to know all the locations of the enemies' team and impossible to get other to cooperate with a grand scheme of defense.

Just like basketball, you can only do so much with an awesome defense. You need to sink in some baskets sooner or later because there will be an occasion when the other team will top you if you play only defensive.

I don't care as much about variance as I care about getting the job done. I'm not promoting totally useless builds that can't kill a fly or save a life, but I am certainly not promoting builds that forgets its priority is to cap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

Teams that solely cap just avoid battle all game, run from 1 shrine to another and beleave that is the only way to victory. When I play with these people I also see opponents doing the exact same, and geuss what, both points go steadily up. AB isn't in a state like HB 2 monks jumping around a map in order to win, yet people want to beleave it. Splitting is one of the hardest things tactic wise to learn in gw, a lot of that goes away with this mentality in ab.

No I am NOT saying that you should never engage in PvP but that killing is rarely as useful as capping if you can cap faster which is pretty easy seeing that the prevalent attitude is "defensive capping" or mobbing.

The truth is that it is rare to see a side that does nothing but capping so this shouldn't really be that much of an issue. If this is one of the rare case, then its obvious that sabotage is the name of the game but for the most part its mobbing. And if that is the case then the strategy is simply beware of stupid people in large groups.

valence · May 04, 2008, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

So you're saying to try to get more than one team of the other side to mob?

No, if 2 teams fight vs 2 other teams, 1 team is capping 1 other team is basically free to do as well.

Quote:

Hindering a team from while protecting your own is pretty damned difficult seeing how its difficult to know all the locations of the enemies' team and impossible to get other to cooperate with a grand scheme of defense.

You fail to see what hindering alone means, if you wipe those 4 guys it takes enough time for them to res so you can freely cap a shrine. Not only do you defend a good position, you improved the situation. While a team that caps hopes the oposition doesnt do it faster. This makes you extremely reliant of the other 8.

Quote:

Just like basketball, you can only do so much with an awesome defense. You need to sink in some baskets sooner or later because there will be an occasion when the other team will top you if you play only defensive.

I don't care as much about variance as I care about getting the job done. I'm not promoting totally useless builds that can't kill a fly or save a life, but I am certainly not promoting builds that forgets its priority is to cap.

Except i'm not promoting 100% defense, I'm saying it is useless to cap a shrine while, if you see 4 guys running for a shrine you can intercept it midrun and get an extra shrine as a result from it. You like the idea that the others are crap and you are the only one doing 'your job', I preffer the idea that what I do will give me a good shot against good players, as against the bad players I win 'cause I should be able to play better.

Quote:

No I am NOT saying that you should never engage in PvP but that killing is rarely as useful as capping if you can cap faster which is pretty easy seeing that the prevalent attitude is "defensive capping" or mobbing.

The truth is that it is rare to see a side that does nothing but capping so this shouldn't really be that much of an issue. If this is one of the rare case, then its obvious that sabotage is the name of the game but for the most part its mobbing. And if that is the case then the strategy is simply beware of stupid people in large groups.

Killing is more usefull then you think, that is exactly what i am trying to tell. If you kill something you don't just get points from the kill, you also get the virtual points from the shrine they couldn't cap. While if you would have capped, they would have capped as well.

If your opponents are bad, you are gonna win anyway. Play as the opponents are good, cause for them you need it.

MasterSasori · May 04, 2008, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

No, if 2 teams fight vs 2 other teams, 1 team is capping 1 other team is basically free to do as well.

Ok, now I'm just confused. If one of your teams is capping, the enemies team is free to do what they want? What is the point of this? The 2v2 is still a brawl.

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

You fail to see what hindering alone means, if you wipe those 4 guys it takes enough time for them to res so you can freely cap a shrine.

I play crip shot so methinks I know what hindering means. It also depends on how long you take killing that team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

Not only do you defend a good position, you improved the situation. While a team that caps hopes the oposition doesnt do it faster. This makes you extremely reliant of the other 8.

Likewise you should hope not to get annihilated by that team as well. Because if you do and you still try to defend, it's game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

Except i'm not promoting 100% defense, I'm saying it is useless to cap a shrine while, if you see 4 guys running for a shrine you can intercept it midrun and get an extra shrine as a result from it. You like the idea that the others are crap and you are the only one doing 'your job', I preffer the idea that what I do will give me a good shot against good players, as against the bad players I win 'cause I should be able to play better.

And I'm not promoting 100% mindless capping either. I advocate getting in fights you can win quickly because it takes too much damned time to go brawling. If you like the whole character killing feeling RA would be much much much much better suited for your mentality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

Killing is more usefull then you think, that is exactly what i am trying to tell. If you kill something you don't just get points from the kill, you also get the virtual points from the shrine they couldn't cap. While if you would have capped, they would have capped as well.

Killing is great if you can kill efficiently but you can't assure yourself unless you have a good reason to support it. However npcs are always the same and you have a relative good idea in the number of seconds it takes for you to wipe it clear. Of course the people in your group also pays a factor but its also present in trying to kill another group.

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

If your opponents are bad, you are gonna win anyway. Play as the opponents are good, cause for them you need it.

No, definitely not true. Top TA and RA players play AB as well but they don't understand the concept of ABing. They can whoop anyone's butt any day in PvP but since they don't cap, they will still lose.

valence · May 04, 2008, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

Ok, now I'm just confused. If one of your teams is capping, the enemies team is free to do what they want? What is the point of this? The 2v2 is still a brawl.

I play crip shot so methinks I know what hindering means. It also depends on how long you take killing that team.

Likewise you should hope not to get annihilated by that team as well. Because if you do and you still try to defend, it's game.

And I'm not promoting 100% mindless capping either. I advocate getting in fights you can win quickly because it takes too much damned time to go brawling. If you like the whole character killing feeling RA would be much much much much better suited for your mentality.

Killing is great if you can kill efficiently but you can't assure yourself unless you have a good reason to support it. However npcs are always the same and you have a relative good idea in the number of seconds it takes for you to wipe it clear. Of course the people in your group also pays a factor but its also present in trying to kill another group.

No, definitely not true. Top TA and RA players play AB as well but they don't understand the concept of ABing. They can whoop anyone's butt any day in PvP but since they don't cap, they will still lose.

Even if you brawl for 10+ min it doesn't matter, as long as you are ahead of shrines. The brawl limits the capping abilities of the opponent. Lets say I am ahead of shrines, I meet you somewhere and stop you and your team from capping a shrine, who gets closer to a win?

Red Sand said it better in a single quote:
He is wise who knows when to fight and when not to fight. - Sun Tzu

MasterSasori · May 05, 2008, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

Even if you brawl for 10+ min it doesn't matter, as long as you are ahead of shrines. The brawl limits the capping abilities of the opponent. Lets say I am ahead of shrines, I meet you somewhere and stop you and your team from capping a shrine, who gets closer to a win?

Red Sand said it better in a single quote:
He is wise who knows when to fight and when not to fight. - Sun Tzu

The problem is that its much easier to cap then it is to defend and it almost has better payoffs because you can't control what the other teams so there is nothing you can defend other than what you can see.

While if you're capping, you can always find a way to make yourself useful and if the enemy is capping behind you, you can always take another route.

valence · May 05, 2008, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

The problem is that its much easier to cap then it is to defend and it almost has better payoffs because you can't control what the other teams so there is nothing you can defend other than what you can see.

While if you're capping, you can always find a way to make yourself useful and if the enemy is capping behind you, you can always take another route.

While capping is easier, the rewards are lower, not higher. You can take a different route, but that simply doesn't stop others to cap either. If you are capping you cannot control what other teams are doing either, if they die, you will still lose.

I never said this is easier, but if the chance arise and you don't make use of it you give the decision to 8 other players. The easy way doesn't need to be the right way.

Bobby2 · May 05, 2008, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

The problem is that its much easier to cap then it is to defend and it almost has better payoffs because you can't control what the other teams so there is nothing you can defend other than what you can see.

How is it harder to defend a shrine than to cap one? Scenario:

- me, a single Assassin, standing at the Necro shrine
- opposing, incomplete team arrives; 2 sins and a nuker (I'm being realistic)

Normally, they would bolt into the shrine no questions asked. Now that I'm here, they either hesitate (which is good) or proceed as normal (which means their nuker is done for). Sins are left to their own devices, good chance I get one of them or both after I'm done with the Ele.

Apply this to full teams, and you have numerical advantage if nothing else.

MasterSasori · May 05, 2008, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

How is it harder to defend a shrine than to cap one? Scenario:

- me, a single Assassin, standing at the Necro shrine
- opposing, incomplete team arrives; 2 sins and a nuker (I'm being realistic)

Normally, they would bolt into the shrine no questions asked. Now that I'm here, they either hesitate (which is good) or proceed as normal (which means their nuker is done for). Sins are left to their own devices, good chance I get one of them or both after I'm done with the Ele.

Apply this to full teams, and you have numerical advantage if nothing else.

I had another part to this. By saying this, I was referring to shrines that you can't see. Sure if you defend a shrine from 1 team while you're nearby, this isn't difficult unless they have a good nuker, but it's impossible to know where an enemy group is that you can't see or isn't actively capping a shrine.

You pretty much know what you're going up against when you head to an npc shrine but when you're going against a real team, you have to take into consideration of the chance you could wipe. Granted if you're good, this is rarely the case, but there is still an off chance that you could wipe.

moriz · May 05, 2008, 02:35 PM // 14:35

open the mini map. by looking at the shrine situation, you can pretty easily guess where the teams are. then, play accordingly.

wiping against an attacking team, while you are standing with shrine advantage, is rarely a possibility. if they kill you, you'll just have to accept that they are better than you and move on. in some cases, shrine npcs are more powerful than actual players. elite ele shrine, anyone?

MasterSasori · May 05, 2008, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

open the mini map. by looking at the shrine situation, you can pretty easily guess where the teams are. then, play accordingly.

wiping against an attacking team, while you are standing with shrine advantage, is rarely a possibility. if they kill you, you'll just have to accept that they are better than you and move on. in some cases, shrine npcs are more powerful than actual players. elite ele shrine, anyone?

Ele collecting ownz.

As for the minimap - yes I'm well aware you can't use the minimap to approximate where they are, but it doesn't help you to intercept until they've started capping/give away their position. If you're holding the front, and they sneak to the back, you're going to have a bit of trouble to recap those shrines.

Bobby2 · May 05, 2008, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Which is why it pays to have some impromptu fast-response linebackers

Red Sand · May 05, 2008, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

You pretty much know what you're going up against when you head to an npc shrine but when you're going against a real team, you have to take into consideration of the chance you could wipe. Granted if you're good, this is rarely the case, but there is still an off chance that you could wipe.

QFT. Simply put, those of you who advocate standing and fighting do so because you believe that you are not only good, but better than your opponents. That is simply not the case. Sometimes they wipe you. Sometimes you kill almost their whole team and then that warrior just refuses to go down and ties you up for a long, long time. By engaging, you lose points that you would gained had you evaded, capped, and engaged later in the match, after you established a good lead.

Here's the deal: If it takes you and your team 35 seconds to wipe a team, that's worth 12 points. Holding four control points for the same 35 seconds is worth 20 points. Doing both is worth... you guessed it... 32 points. The numbers don't lie.

I've never lost an AB where we didn't kill enough, but I certainly have lost AB's where we didn't hold more shrines longer than the other side, or where my teammates mindlessly fed the mob while the mobbers held more shrines than our side. Don't feed the mob.

Pay attention to the lead and the flags: If you are slightly ahead on points but behind on shrines, you are losing. You can't kill fast enough to catch up if you are behind on shrines.

Either you agree with the overall strategy or you don't; either you use good tactics or you don't. Personally, I advocate capping when you are behind, and skirmishing when you are well ahead or when you have a clear advantage. That's knowing when to fight and when not to fight.

valence · May 05, 2008, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

QFT. Simply put, those of you who advocate standing and fighting do so because you believe that you are not only good, but better than your opponents. That is simply not the case. Sometimes they wipe you. Sometimes you kill almost their whole team and then that warrior just refuses to go down and ties you up for a long, long time. By engaging, you lose points that you would gained had you evaded, capped, and engaged later in the match, after you established a good lead.

Here's the deal: If it takes you and your team 35 seconds to wipe a team, that's worth 12 points. Holding four control points for the same 35 seconds is worth 20 points. Doing both is worth... you guessed it... 32 points. The numbers don't lie.

Running is therefor the strategy if you are worse? Skrims can give greater rewards, or lower if you lose. No big news.

The numbers lie if you calculate it wrong. You forget the points they miss cause they cannot cap. You are right, know when to engage and when not. Know when you are outmatched and when not, but seriously ab is not in an hb state, what people try to beleave.

Red Sand · May 05, 2008, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

You are right, know when to engage and when not.

Glad to see that read and understood my post.

valence · May 05, 2008, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

Glad to see that read and understood my post.

I haven't said anywhere that you should solely rambo everything you see, what the 100%cap wannabe's want to beleave. Instead this is to the 'cap teams' that actually think they are doing the right things at all time.

If I want to run around an entire match, I play HB, where at least it is an winning tactic. However due the random nature of AB it isn't even close to that state of HB, yet people want to beleave it.

Note however that my post was going towards the original poster, that shrines aren't as discouraging as in HB. Continue this discussion in the other topic made for this.

Red Sand · May 05, 2008, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

Note however that my post was going towards the original poster, that shrines aren't as discouraging as in HB. Continue this discussion in the other topic made for this.

Note however, that you quoted me, and not the original poster, and therefore gained my complete and undivided attention.

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

The numbers lie if you calculate it wrong. You forget the points they miss cause they cannot cap.

I didn't forget those points because in the example I provided, in those 35 seconds, those "they miss because they cannot cap" points have not been made. AND you cannot count on winning the skirmish against another team, but you can count on winning the shrine. AND despite your winning the skirmish, you can lose the battle if you are behind on shrines.

There were five paragraphs in that post, you paid attention to two.